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Shaken Not Stirred

05 Dec

sns13  sns2  sns4    sns32   sns6   marv2

 

Okay … so I’ve admitted to being a Marvaholic. There seem to be quite a few joining in on the nightly meetings. Good to see we’re all seeking help.  Lord knows we need it.
Marv came barreling into my life not too very long ago and has shaken my emotions ever since. His writing definitely pushes the limits and forces us to rethink everything. His latest release, Owen Fiddler, is making a round of blogs for the next two weeks. You won’t want to miss it.  In fact, I will be sharing my latest run in with Owen right here on Kat Logic Saturday!
Until then, I want to share a bit of a discussion I had with the Marvster himself. In his book Owen Fiddler, there were a few excerpts that really got me upset. Offended I might add. Come to find out, I am not alone in my thinking. Now, I’m one for pushing the envelope and going against the grain – but even this shook me to my core.  Take a look at the excerpts I’m speaking of, check out our discussion about it, then let me know what YOU think about it. All comments and opinions welcomed!
1)”After some good time the laughter subsided, and Frenda indeed planted a big one on Kris’ shining cheek. He smacked her back a good one right on her mouth. With tongue.”

 

2)  “Every thought, memory and experience she had ever had collapsed into one implosion of experimental “now”.  Ecstasy, rapture and love beyond anything measurable by human sensual, sexual, or emotional capacity blasted her apart.  Replacing her sense of being was One Unified Omnipresent Pure Love. The eyes of Frenda and Kris melted together into one that could see itself as itself; and at the same time not itself, but none other than the WORD.  They became and made pure love with such intensity that the stars shown brighter on the dark side of the earth.”

~                   ~                     ~                         ~                             ~
Katrina:
  Welcome back once again, Marv. I couldn’t wait to get you in here for this discussion. I’ve read Owen Fiddler front to back. Now I just want to discuss some things about it.  You know what I was thinking?  I realized we’ve both been Christians about the same amount of time.

Marv:  Correct.

Katrina:  We come from similar backgrounds of addictions.
Marv:  Yes.
Katrina:  And we have an agreed love for the Lord.
Marv: Yes.
Katrina:  Just different ways of looking at our faith or our view of Christ.
Marv: I’m following you.
Katrina:  So, while we have different perspectives of Christ, I do not believe that is a bad thing.
Marv:   No, it’s healthy.  Even in the Apostle Paul’s time there were different kinds of Christians.
Katrina:  I don’t agree with some of your views.  When I was reading Owen however, I was with you the entire way, up until …
Marv:  Up until the kiss?
Katrina:  No, even before then. One thing that really bothered me was when you referred to “Lou” and Kris as twin brothers.  I had to stop and ask myself, “does he really believe that or is he being funny? Is he just being Marv?”
Marv:  Diabolic opposite twins.  Yin and yang.  Polarities. Dualities. The world we live in.
Katrina:   Right. So you didn’t mean it in the literal sense?
Marv:  No not literal. Philosophical.
Katrina:  Ok…I feel better about that. I am a literal thinker and it struck me really in a bad way.
Marv:  Oh, I see. Maybe it will others also. And that is okay with me.
Katrina:  I try to view it from a non-Christian’s perspective and wonder how they will take it.  I think as Christians, whether we want to believe it, whether we like it or not, people are watching us.  They watch our walk…our views. Even how we handle each storm.
Marv:  It is therefore incumbent upon us to act accordingly.
Katrina:  Now …yes the kiss really REALLY bothered me.  Offended me even.  Now, we’ve discussed our view of Christ … let me give you a bit of background without going too far.  I was sexually abused for many years by my adopted father. Abandoned by my birth father.
Marv: Keep going. This sucks already, very sorry to hear that, but keep going.
Katrina:   So I view Christ as my Heavenly Father…we are His children and He calls us His sons and daughters.
Marv:   I understand totally. That’s a helpful image to hold in your case, and a common one that is helpful to many. And it’s biblical.  So I’m not at all opposed to it.
Katrina:  So the very thought of him kissing Frenda “with tongue” very much offended me in the fact that you would portray him in such a light. It felt disrespectful.
Marv:  Katrina. Kris and Frenda make love on all levels. Making love is disrespectful? Pure love? Not talking humping, here, talking pure love.
Katrina:   I know you have your reasoning, but from a non-Christian or a new Christian’s point of view, how do you defend that small portion of your book?
Marv:  I am not defending anything. Look, Kat – they didn’t have sexual intercourse, and not because that would have been bad or naughty, but because there was no need! Maybe you should go back and re-read the second excerpt you just posted. Here – let me remind you and our readers today-
Ecstasy, rapture and love beyond anything measurable by human sensual, sexual, or emotional capacity

 

Who needs to screw when you can have THAT kind of experience?
Their love making was PURE love. ONE love. Where are you going with this? Why are you so stuck? It was a simple kiss, for god’s sake, in the aftermath of a Oneness Pure Love Encounter.

Katrina:  I was extremely offended by it.  Just a personal opinion.

Marv: Offended by the pure love making? You’ve gotta be kidding?!
Katrina: Well because again I am a literal thinker. It just doesn’t make sense. At least not to me.  As a young child my thought process and identity was wrapped up and evolved around “love” which was in no way pure.  So I used to have a very distorted image of love … I must admit. And to hear of a “Father” and daughter making love (even pure love) really bothers me. No matter how you word it.
Marv:  Well then I don’t know how I can help you.  I’m without a clue how to write about love for you then.  To me that was as pure as God’s love gets. And Kris was not written up in Owen Fiddler as a “Father.” The “One” is the Father in Owen Fiddler. Still the same Christianity holy trinity of course, everything is One, but Frenda hasn’t even met The One (The Father) yet. That will happen in a sequel I am planning to write. Kris in this book is a savior and a lover. He loves you and me and everyone and he was so happy to be with Frenda, who was such a wonderful example of how a spiritual being could do so well in the human experience, that he just got all giddy and excited and kissed her. After having this awesome total oneness pure love making session in the highest realms of heaven, afterwards in a jocular mood while dancing a jig and making Frenda laugh, he just materialized enough to touch her physically, to relate to her on THAT level, with a kiss. Good lord you are making such a big deal out of this. Lighten up. At least he didn’t lower the experience to the realms of having a smoke after sex, for god’s sake.
Katrina:  What I’m saying is, even as a Christian, a new Christian or a non-Christian, just talking about God like that in that manner was very hard for me. I could not relate to what you meant by it. I did understand you didn’t mean the actual act of sex. I got that so I was able to remove that portion from my mind, but I just couldn’t connect with what you were trying to say as an author… as a Christian.  I really struggled with that.  And then you went right into him kissing “with tongue.”  So it confused me more. Is it physical or is it not? You lost me. 
Marv:  Again. Katrina. They are both spirit beings in that part of the book. They are able to relate and touch on any level. ANY level. And remember, Frenda is sitting beside him on the couch completely naked and unashamed…no shame…original sin gone.  Heaven.
Katrina:  Okay, I get that … but to portray Christ … the very one that gave his life for his children – the very man that was tortured and beaten and crucified – to portray him in such a haphazard manner (pardon the term for lack of a better word)…seemed very disrespectful.
Marv: I give up. You are beyond hope. That’s why I don’t preach to the choir. My ministry is not to the religious. I write novels that relate to the masses with Christian “themed” messages. The pure unconditional love of Christ comes shining through for those who have eyes to read. But if you are prone to getting hung up on precious held dogmas or deeply embedded organized church perpetuated ideologies, my writing will tend to stir your ire. Fo sho.
Katrina:  No. You can’t give up. I won’t let you. You have to help me understand this. To be able to explain this to the secular world and nonbelievers that come to our site.
Marvin: (sigh) Fine. I’m easy. Shoot.
Katrina: I shared your book with my non-Christian husband to get his view. He was not offended, of course. But he holds no understanding of Christ whatsoever. He does not believe Jesus is the son of God or that He died on the cross for us. So he has no personal relationship with a Heavenly Father.
Marv:  Well I am not surprised. None of the non-Christians that have read Owen Fiddler have been offended.  I think there lays the rub. The “personal” relationship. What form that takes in our minds.  God is formless.  Beyond shape and form. But WE have to deal with FORM. So we create these “forms” in our minds, pigeon-hole the ultimate into a finite image and then cling onto that image as if heaven forbid it were to be blurred or questioned in any way we might lose our very souls. Ridiculous.
Katrina:  My husband understood the point behind the story. Believing there is hope for anyone. That anyone can change.
Marv:  Awesome!  That means I am helping.
Katrina:  You are helping…most assuredly more so than some of the rest of us. In a way more than most of us Christian authors out there that write these beautiful stories of love and forgiveness … yada yada yada.  I agree with your approach.
Marv:  You agree with my approach? You agree with my approach? What? Good lord. Women. After all this, she says she agrees with my approach. Right. Okay. Well, yes about the “Christian book” writers – and they do it well, so no need for the ‘old silly’ to add to that genre.
Katrina:   Some of my books (Hopeless Tap Water) really cross the line in depicting the Christians in my stories…one is an alcoholic and a drug addict – and she’s a Christian.
Marv:  Cool! Someone has to shout out God’s love to the secular world. Go girlfriend, proud of ya!
Katrina:  Though I agree with your approach, I think a lot of us feel you crossed a line with the kiss and the ‘making love’ scene. I know I do. I suppose it’s a matter of perspective.
Marv:  Well that’s tough. Deal with it.  If you can’t read the pure love in what I wrote then you are beyond my capabilities to relate to. Hey – not every writer can relate to every reader. And that is like totally okay. I’m down with that. Tell ya what; go read some nice Sunday School lesson books if that’s what keeps you in your cozy comfort zone. One little kiss.
Katrina:  I don’t mind stepping out of my comfort zone a bit but there are just some lines that even as an author, I won’t cross. I’m glad there are authors that will, like yourself. We need that. We need authors that will push us harder to think deeper and I’m glad that you have that uncanny ability. With that being said, I’d like to open the comments for anyone to share their opinion. No matter what your view, we’d like to hear it and welcome the debate.  Marv has written a rather interesting post today on Free Spirit called …you ready for this… Jesus Farts. Head on over and take a look.
Also…don’t forget to meet back here tomorrow to hear about my encounter with Owen Fiddler himself.
     
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11 Comments

Posted by on December 5, 2008 in encouragement

 

11 responses to “Shaken Not Stirred

  1. Katrina Wampler

    December 5, 2008 at 5:00 pm

    Well, Marv..not sure if we’ve run some folks off or what.

    Just wanted to add a disclaimer . Though Marv and I obviously disagree on our views here, we dearly love each other and have become very close friends. He will be working on my “Hopeless Tap Water” project and preparing it for publication. As you can see, I trust his opinions, his expertise , and his professionalism. He is one of most admired colleagues, brother in Christ, and dear friend.

    So, come on guys. You can let us have it either way. Share your opinions and your views. You know Marv doesn’t scare easy and you certainly can’t scare me… I have 3 kids!!! lol

     
  2. Marvin D Wilson

    December 5, 2008 at 5:10 pm

    I second that emotion, Kat. I hope we didn’t scare your readers off or cause them to feel there is any animosity between us, because there is none and cannot imagine there EVER being any over “religious” issues being debated. I enjoy discussing theological issues with Katrina because she is very intelligent and comes up with some very creative perspectives lots of times. She CAN be SUCH a WOMAN though at times (smile)

    But I love her. She’s a keeper in my book.

     
  3. Katrina Wampler

    December 5, 2008 at 5:30 pm

    This post was added somewhere else so I wanted to move it here for others to see.

    *****************************************************************\

    Wow. I haven’t read the book yet, but I have to say the excerpts I read would probably make me feel uncomfortable too.

    Now Marvin, before you get all huffy and tell me “tough” (smile), just remember that works for you will not work for everyone. I think it’s more than okay to agree to disagree.

    I do agree Jesus was a man, but how does that further my love and respect for Him to dwell on His “humanness”? And He was a “man” for a short thirty three years or so. I believe He is a resurrected, glorious being now. He has been and is the Son of God for now and all eternity. So I choose to dwell on that aspect instead.

    I think you got what you wanted Marvin, a reaction! You’ve got all us thinking. Good. That said, I’m sure I won’t be focusing too much on said scene and still get a lot out of the novel.

    Great, great post!

    quirkyloon@gmail.com
    quirkyloon
    http://www.quirkyloon.com

     
  4. unwriter1

    December 5, 2008 at 6:38 pm

    An interesting post that brought out the trueness of Christ in human form. I’ve read Owen Fiddler a couple of times and believe me, it is me in a nutshell. I have spent my life totally screwed up. I’ve lost a lot over the years, especially relationships. However, in one relationship I picked up my spirituality and a friend named Marvin. I read Fiddler and can see the human side. I can see the meaning of true love. I’ve known love and true love and they are different. Marv uses this difference to get people to thinking about who and what they really are. Was not Jesus human at one point? Did he not experience the sins for which he died to save us? No one sees this part. All they see is the holy man but he was an ordinary man first.

     
  5. Marvin D Wilson

    December 5, 2008 at 6:51 pm

    Well NOW we’re getting some action! Thanks for the endorsement, Ron. And Quirky, you know I love you for your straightforward style. Actually this is a VERY big to do being created here (and almost everywhere in Bloggydom here lately) over a very SMALL part of what Owen Fiddler the book is about. But that too is all right. And this too shall pass.

     
  6. Katrina Wampler

    December 5, 2008 at 11:40 pm

    This comment was posted in a yahoo group. Copied and pasted.

    ********************************************************************
    Anyway, from what I read the problem I see is that “pure love’ has been defined in a sexual context and it shouldn’t be. If you think of ‘agape” love , which i would think is pretty much the same as pure love, it is a kind of love that transcends all other love, and to add a sexual note to it lowers it to less than “pure” . It is taking something that is really a spiritual thing- the joy and fulfillment of the love of God and bringing it down to physical terms.
    Maybe that’s his way of trying to describe it but it falls flat.

    So that’s my opinion , just from the excerpts

    Karen SR in PA

     
  7. Marvin D Wilson

    December 6, 2008 at 12:45 am

    Well Karen you are flat out WRONG. First of all, you have obviously NOT READ the BOOK, nor have you UNDERSTOOD the excerpt at ALL. Nor did you even READ this interview. Pure love happened in the book on One Higher Plane of spirituality, then later in the aftermath a friendly kiss took place in a more physical plane.

    Read, and think before you write.

     
  8. Peggy Ullman Bell

    December 6, 2008 at 4:43 am

    What’s all the fuss about? The kiss was “beyond” sex. How did love get all tangled up in sex anyway? Sex is sex and love is love and sometimes in a perfect world they happen together but that wasn’t the case with this particular fictional kiss.

    Personally, I have no problem with the notion of my big bro Jesus getting it on. He WAS a man after all. Why should he not enjoy life before dying?

    He was “without sin” so therefore nothing he did was sinful. Perhaps if we knew more about what he actually did do we could stop treating God-gifted sex as some nasty tlittle secret.

     
  9. Katrina Wampler

    December 6, 2008 at 12:36 pm

    Well I certainly don’t believe God-gifted sex is nasty at all. Perhaps back in the 40’s people wouldn’t say the ‘s’ word at all, but not now.

    My view or my stand isn’t about sex it’s about the portrayal of God in this scene. The portrayal of Him crossing that line with one of his children.

    I do appreciate everyone’s views and comments on this. I appreciate that we can all discuss it, debate it, and even argue over it.

     
  10. Grace

    December 6, 2008 at 3:48 pm

    Hi Owen Fiddler- Remember me ? I’m Core Asquinn. We used to chat a lot, way back last summer. Read your interview with Katrina. Not bad, but you need to show a lot more respect for yourself, others and most importantly, women. A good woman will not be attracted to you buy your charm and a good woman, wife, is beyond measure. So smarten up and start treating women better. They are not here simply to be used by us men.
    I extend to you an invitation over to my place. Ever Saturday a bunch of us gather there and read a chapter from my exciting story, the Asquinn Twins And Keta.
    Although the rest of us are on Chapter Nine, the chapters preceding are also posted.
    The Asquinn Twins Series Team

    http://meettheasquinnfamily.blogspot.com

    Please come and learn something about Christian character.

     
  11. Kathleen Walls

    December 6, 2008 at 11:09 pm

    I’m a pretty liberal thinker. But kissing is just kissing. Kris is a human in the story and so is Frenda . This was a normal reactions for two people. Remember Jesus Christ was an actual person once and probably experienced all normal human emotions. Even sex between two unmarried adults is a normal emotion and does not hurt anyone. Actually my definition of a sin is something that does hurt someone. Also just because it does not say in the Bible that Jesus had a normal sex life, it doesn’t say he didn’t. As authors, all of us frequently do not detail everything a person does in his everyday normal life in a story , true or fiction, but it can be assumed that if a person did something unusual, it would be recounted. Since almost all normal Jewish men of that era married, and led a normal sexual life, it can be assumed that He also did. Had he not it would have been noted in the gospels.

    Don’t want to fan the controversy but think about it. Are Kris and Frenda really doing anything wrong? Are they hurting themselves or anyone else?

     

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